Transcript starts at 8:04. Transcribers note: Jacinda Ardern’s demeanour in this interview is noticeably different from previous interviews with Mike Hosking. She is clearly uncomfortable discussing the subject, her words are terse, her sentences clipped and she is speaking more quickly than usual at the start. Notes in italics indicate Ardern’s discomfit when she raises her voice or sucks in her breath before answering.
Mike:
The Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern is with us, good morning.
Jacinda:
Good morning.
Mike:
How much of the sex assault scandal sits on your desk personally?
Jacinda:
Well, I know I absolutely must be the one to fix it and that’s what I’m working on doing.
Mike:
How are you doing that?
Jacinda:
We bought in a QC about four weeks ago; ah… and I expect that I’ll get some clarity on some of the competing information that I’ve been given to date um… through that work.
Mike:
Have you talked to the victims?
Jacinda:
Ah, no I haven’t. Um…
Mike:
Why not?
Jacinda:
I don’t believe they’ve sought to speak with me. They only thing I would say, Mike, is that ah… in these kinds of issues, when I’m being advised for instance, there was a… ah… concern around um… ah… how many people within the party may know about some of the complaints that were being made, which originally of course – as I’ve stated – I was originally advised were not sexual in nature. Um… ah… the question I would raise is whether or not they would want to talk to me. If they did, I would happily talk to them.
Mike:
Why didn’t you reach out? Don’t you owe them a duty of care?
Jacinda:
(Sucks in breath). Again, ah… the first question I asked when I was advised that a complaint had been made about a Labour member who also happened to be employed, the first question I asked was whether complaints were sexual or physical in nature. Ah… I was advised they were not.
Mike:
And when asked that, who did you ask that of, and when did you ask?
Jacinda:
Ah,I was given, on a “no surprises” basis that information by a staff member that they went back and conferred with the party and confirmed that they were not (indistinct)…
Mike:
So, you didn’t do any of this personally? You didn’t ring Haworth yourself and say “what the hell is going on?”
Jacinda:
(Raises voice) On that day that I was asked, I did it immed… I asked the question immediately and I was advised immediately it was not. I since then, of course, continued to ask that question.
Mike:
Of who?
Jacinda:
The party… the party themselves… of… of party leadership. The party themselves, aah… of course, continue to maintain the complaints that they were looking into were not sexual in nature. So, obviously I have two pieces of very competing information. That’s very distressing, it’s very frustrating – I am now trying to get to the bottom of that.
Mike:
Who do you believe?
Jacinda:
(Sucks in breath) Oh, well of course you know what I’m… been inclined to believe…ummm..aah…
Mike:
No, I don’t. Explain it to me.
Jacinda:
(Raises voice) Well, you’ve had arguments with me before and you’ve taken the other side, Mike. (Chuckles) Um, when you’ve um… tended to um… aah… believe the person who’s aah… had an allegation against them and I’ve taken the other view…
Mike:
Shouldn’t we believe the victim?
Jacinda:
And that’s what I’m… that’s what I’m implying here, Mike, is that that’s of course the position… of course my tendency is to take care of… of course I also need to remember that I’m the employer here as well, so making sure that we… that I handle that appropriately too (indistinct)…
Mike:
How many times have you dealt with the president over this directly?
Jacinda:
Oh, well, obviously, this has been an issue of an ongoing nature for… several months.
Mike:
Well, longer than that – it started in February 18 so it’s… it’s well in excess of a year now. At any point have you said “why is this taking so long?”
Jacinda:
Well… not when I was first advised of the ah… investigation that was being undertaken. (Sucks in breath) Obviously things have changed. I have completely different information now – most of which I’ve seen via the public domain – I’m not satisfied with that. That’s why I’ve brought in a QC.
Mike:
Why have you done that now, given this has been in the public domain for at least a month?
Jacinda:
I didn’t do it now it was done four weeks ago.
Mike:
Why has it taken so long?
Jacinda:
(Sucks in breath) Well, as I say, the QC was brought in four weeks ago…
Mike:
No, but the whole thing from beginning to end. This has dragged for months. It began in February of 18 and here we are in September of 19. (Ardern sucks in breath) It’s still going, it’s still alive, it’s still an issue.
Jacinda:
Ah… the complaint, as I understand was ah… made about six months ago, the investigation by the party um…started then. They concluded ah… um… those involved were ah… dissatisfied with the process um… and complaints were made about that. That’s when um… a third party was brought in um… and now since then… obviously we’ve had ah… statements made than um… directly contradict the… the very nature of the complaint.
Mike:
Hmm.
Jacinda:
Now I need to get clarity so I can act on it. Um…
Mike:
What are you going to do when you act on it?
Jacinda:
(Sucks in breath) Well, obviously it depends very much what it finds around the way that the party has handled it.
Mike:
The victim is right, and you have been misled; what are you going to do?
Jacinda:
(Sucks in breath) Well, obviously than I need to look at um… all… where mistakes were made – if they were made by the party. But, again, as I say – they continue to maintain that they did not have a sexual complaint brought to them, so I need clarity around that.
Mike:
Can you sack the president?
Jacinda:
(Sucks in breath) Ah… our president is elected, um… but actually I’m going to be really clear here. The president himself, if he has a report um… that ah… ah… finds that the party hasn’t dealt with this appropriately or that there’s been failure on his part, um… he would do what’s in the best interests of the party and those involved. He would.
Mike:
Has he told you that?
Jacinda:
I think that’s a bit of a moot point. I know it and he… I know that to be true of him. I’ve worked with him long enough to know that.
Mike:
Would you expect him to quit?
Jacinda:
I… I know that he would. I know the person that he is.
Mike:
You’ve got enough here for him to quit already haven’t you? I mean, this is… this is, by all accounts, a complete shambles.
Jacinda:
(Sucks in breath) Four weeks ago we determined that it wasn’t good enough and that’s why a QC was brought in. Um… but again I do just want to point out the party’s maintained the same point, that they would never, they consider themselves not to be in the appropriate place and I absolutely consider that too. Not the appropriate place to be handling complaints of this nature. They maintain that that was not the complaint they were investigating. Ah… we need to take seriously, very seriously though um… ah… the article that was released yesterday. It’s extremely distressing. (Sucks in breath)
Mike:
How is it that in… in… in – that’s crux of the whole problem, the fact that this person had to do what they have done. Either they are duplicitous and dishonest and they’re making all of this up or they’re being honest and what they’ve alleged happened, did happen, and they’ve had to go to the public arena to embarrass you and shame you into the sort of action that you’ve finally been dragged into taking.
Jacinda:
(Subdued voice) Again, Mike four weeks ago we recognised that this was an issue that we needed to give those involved ah… a greater ah… sense of… comfort, neutrality: a process that they felt they could engage in…
Mike:
Why didn’t they get that in the first place?
Jacinda:
Because, again, as I say, the claim that I had from the Labour Party is that the nature of the allegations were not the same as what is being made now. Um… regardless, four weeks ago we’ve brought in someone who I believe can deal with both the complaints about the process. Um… however, I would still say that what I read yesterday was a very serious allegation. Now I understand many people do not wish to go to the police, but that is still the best place for this to be dealt with.
Mike:
Have you told them that?
Jacinda:
I’ve said it publicly, again um… ah… it’s… pseudonyms have been used in the public domain so it’s hard for me to know, precisely, the individuals involved. But if the party can provide support or counselling or… anything that we can…
Mike:
Well, why would they trust the party – the party’s butchered this?