Newstalk ZB transcript starts at 7:28
Mike:
The prime minister Jacinda Ardern is with us this morning. Good morning.
Jacinda:
Good morning.
Mike:
Could I accuse you of being asleep at the wheel on measles?
Jacinda:
Um I don’t believe that that would be fair, but you can accuse me of anything you like, Mike.
Mike:
Where has David Clark been, for goodness sake? I’m watching Julie-Anne Genter roll this thing out Friday thinking “Where the hell is Clark?”
Jacinda:
That’s because she has the delegation. Um she is an Associate Minister of Health and she has ah, responsibility for ah this area. So, that’s not…
Mike:
Well, she’s failing. Why have we got a thousand people with measles?
Jacinda:
Ah, I don’t think it’s fair to say that because people have contracted measles that that is a failure of an individual minister. Are we taking it seriously? Absolutely. I’m as concerned as you are Mike. Our job here is to make sure that given we have an outbreak, that we respond to that um with tangible things that are going to make a difference. So, we are training at the moment 25 nurses to get into 34 schools, particularly in South Auckland, keeping in mind of the 960 cases we’ve had since March, 800 we are talking about in that Auckland area, predominantly in the south. So, outside of that we haven’t got an outbreak. It is in Auckland. Those have… those cases have come in, um… from overseas basically, is where they’ve originated from and globally, we’ve seen a 300% increase in cases. So, we are not alone here. What we’ve got to do is get that immunisation message out. 91% of our under two-year-olds are immunised…
Mike:
Yeah, it’s not good enough, it’s not good enough. Overall the vaccination figure is 77% of kids under six months old. We need 90%. We are failing, and we are failing because we ask nicely…
Jacinda:
The national…
Mike:
Well, I don’t care what National did, you are the government now.
Jacinda:
No, I…
Mike:
Lazy people don’t get vaccinated so you gotta do something about it.
Jacinda:
Mike… Mike you know that I am not going to sit here and blame it… I was about to say the national immunisation register ah, that requires people… that suggests people go on it at 15 months. Now, what we are saying in Auckland is 12 months. That’s where we are saying bring in… bring in your child because that’s we know… that’s what we know we need to do in Auckland. And then again at 15 months. So that advice now we’re asking GPs get that out again. But actually, as I was saying 91% for under two-year-olds, the issue is we need to get that out by about another four to get that herd immunity.
Mike:
This isn’t telethon. It’s… you’re not… you’re not doing well enough. The facts speak for themselves. You got a thousand people with measles and asking them isn’t solving the problem. You need a no jab no pay. Why don’t we have one?
Jacinda:
Mike, actually we’ve managed to get ourselves up to close to herd immunity post the 1990s where we experienced this problem before. We have had issues in the past with getting our immunisation rates up, ah, and that has been in periods where we’ve had strong moves against vaccinations and so on. The way we’ve managed to change that is by actually improving access. I asked the Director Health his view on this. He’s worked in this area, it’s an area where he specialises, he was there through the 1990s where he had to get up the numbers before. His view is that actually the number of the anti-vax element isn’t as large as we probably think, in part it’s people accessing it. So that’s why putting those nurses out where people are, getting those vaccination rates up by trying to make it as convenient as possible – that’s going to make a difference.
Mike:
All right.
Jacinda:
Now, I think we also… Mike, just on the no jab no pay issue, I mean there’s a couple of problems with that. It actually doesn’t capture of course, your whole community…
Mike:
No, of course not. It’s not a magic bullet, it’s just one of the things. In Australia it’s worked. 175,000 people as a direct result of that policy have had their kids jabbed. 175,000.
Jacinda:
But how many would have… how many people would have done it as well if you actually just made it as available as possible?
Mike:
Well… well clearly not enough because we got a thousand people with measles. You can’t argue with the facts. You got a thousand people with measles when we shouldn’t.
Jacinda:
No one is arguing, um Mike that we don’t want an outbreak of measles in Auckland, of course. But we’ve got a 4% gap that we need to fill that’s been a problem for us since um 2015 we’ve had issues.
Mike:
Because you haven’t been hard enough on it. That’s what I’m saying. Get hard on it. Make people do it because asking doesn’t work and the facts prove it.
Jacinda:
That is… that is actually incorrect Mike. We’ve got our rates up before using the approach we are using now which is to make sure people have the information access they need. And that has done it before and it will do it again. That’s what we’ve…
Mike:
The cancer plan was announced um… what happens when the DHBs don’t meet their targets?
Jacinda:
This is actually what I would have to say Mike, a problem with our health system. Ah you will remember that we’ve got Heather Simpson out doing um ah a bit of work for us at the moment because something since I’ve come into government realised that the levers that we have are really limited. So, if something goes wrong you can sack a health board – that’s a pretty extreme measure, you can put on a commissioner, equally a significant measure, but actually beyond that we’ve set expectation and there aren’t a lot of levers. And so, ah, that’s something I spoke openly about when we launched our cancer action plan. It’s one thing to set expectations, it’s another for us to be able to really (indistinct)…
Mike:
So, what are the levers? What are you going to do? Because I can tell you at the moment DHBs aren’t performing and your current cancer target nine of them didn’t even make it. So, what are you doing about it?
Jacinda:
The issue is not just for cancer. You know some… you could argue that some of the issues that we’ve seen around delivery of general health services….
Mike:
Oh, of course, I’m not saying they are not inept. They are inept. There’s no question they’re inept but when you launch a cancer service and say we’re going to get rid of the post code and we’re going to give you the sort of access you require and need and deserve – what are you going to do – literally – when they don’t deliver?
Jacinda:
And the point that I am just making here is the issue is not just for cancer. So, one thing we’ve done here is say, actually we do think is that given just how far the reach and impact of cancer is in our country that we have that independent ah agency who… who is able to report directly to the minister, who is acting ah… ah with that level of independence to try and actually drive that change for cancer.
Mike:
Yeah, and what are they going to do?
Jacinda:
And Mike, as I’ve said, we actually need some structural change within our health system to address the issue you are raising which is not just about cancer, it’s about everything.
Mike:
So, what is the structural change?
Jacinda:
Do you want to talk to Heather Simpson when she puts her report out this week because that is the beginning of that much bigger piece of work?
Mike:
And so, when you say much bigger piece of work – when literally will we have a lever, to use your words, “to be able to make sure we deliver the stuff you are promising is going to get delivered?”
Jacinda:
She’s giving us the first cut of her take on what we need to do to improve things ah… this week. But again, this is not change that we can take lightly here because Mike this is an ongoing issue in our health system which, I have to say by and large we have excellent health services in New Zealand but we can do better.
Mike:
Not on cancer we don’t.
Jacinda:
This is… oh… on cancer actually internationally we fare… we fare relatively well but we know we can do better. Already across the country that is something that I am concerned about. Where you live depends whether or not you can get a good outcome. But also, with Maori. Maori are more likely to be diagnosed and have lower survival rates. So that’s another thing that is… has to be addressed.